Legislature(2001 - 2002)
02/21/2002 08:02 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 346-CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITTEES Number 0520 CHAIR COGHILL announced the next order of business, HOUSE BILL NO. 346, "An Act relating to concealed handgun permittees." CHAIR COGHILL called a brief at-ease at 8:07 a.m. He called the meeting back to order at 8:09 a.m. Number 0545 JENNIFER YUHAS, Staff to Representative Beverly Masek, Alaska State Legislature, testified on behalf of Representative Masek, sponsor of HB 346. She read from the sponsor statement: A statutory revision is needed to further clarify the recognition of concealed handgun permits from other states. The 21st legislature passed ... Senate Bill 294, which provides for the recognition of permits: (1) from the states with permit requirements similar to Alaska; and (2) from states which recognize Alaska's permits. Senate Bill 294 also directed the Department of Public Safety to determine which states and political subdivisions grant reciprocity to Alaska permit holders and distribute the list to each law enforcement agency in this state. The department has yet to fully implement this statutory requirement, some 16 months later. This legislation will simplify the process by plainly recognizing all permits issued by other states. In so doing, the burden on the department of having to evaluate all the other state's laws to determine which ones recognize Alaska's permits and the subjectivity on the part of the department in determining which other states' statutes are similar to Alaska law will be removed. House Bill 346 will better serve the public and permit holders. MS. YUHAS noted that Brian Judy was available from the National Rifle Association (NRA) to testify regarding statutory revisions and impacts. Number 0773 JULIA GRIMES, Lieutenant, Division Operations Unit, Alaska State Troopers, testified via teleconference. She noted that the proposed legislation doesn't specify a time period similar to that imposed for vehicle registration and driver licensing, after which a person would be required to apply for an Alaska permit. She said current statute provides for a 120-day period, after which out-of-state permit holders who are in Alaska would be required to obtain an Alaska permit. MS GRIMES indicated a concern that the legislation, while allowing permit holders from other states to come up to Alaska, does not back its Alaska permit holders. She mentioned efforts made to get reciprocity for Alaska permit holders to go Outside, but acknowledged that the legislation doesn't necessarily help with that. Number 0899 MS. GRIMES offered an update regarding reciprocity. She said, "We now have 11 states listed on our web site that offer what I will call 'true reciprocity,' and that's based on the statute, paragraph (2), that if they recognize our permits, we will recognize their permits." She called Georgia, Connecticut, and Indiana "reciprocity-able" - once those states give written confirmation of an agreement, they will be included on the web site list. MS. GRIMES indicated there are ten states, under "paragraph (1)," whose permits [Alaska] will honor; however, because the requirements of their permit programs are dissimilar to Alaska's, true reciprocity is not currently possible. She said she is in the process of changing that limitation. She told the committee this is an ongoing process, because the laws in various states change frequently. Number 1034 MS. GRIMES named the following difficulties regarding attempts to provided reciprocity: some states have no concealed handgun permit programs, and two states, to her belief, cannot abide Alaska's 120-day rule because their own limits are much shorter. CHAIR COGHILL asked: "Is that 2 out of the 25 possible that are similar?" MS. GRIMES answered yes. She said New Hampshire is one of the states that had a problem with the 120-day limit. CHAIR COGHILL related his understanding, then, that at least 23 states are similar, although the list only contains 11 states. MS. GRIMES agreed, but pointed out that paragraph (1), which lists the similar requirements, merely says Alaska will honor permits from other states that are similar. However, that paragraph doesn't provide for those states to honor Alaska's permittees in the other state. Therefore, she reiterated that she has been negotiating in regard to whether these states could offer Alaska's permittees reciprocity. Under paragraph (2) there is true reciprocity. CHAIR COGHILL asked if there has been some notification to these other states in regard to Alaska's qualifications. MS. GRIMES answered yes. She explained that although all states have been contacted, not all have returned the contact. Furthermore, letters have been sent to Arkansas and Louisiana because there has been indication that reciprocity could probably be arranged through a letter to the attorney general or department of public safety in those states. The possibility of reciprocity from quite a few states is pending. CHAIR COGHILL related his understanding, then, that HB 346 merely recognizes the permits from other states and thus allows those permittees to carry [concealed handguns] in Alaska. MS. GRIMES agreed. In further response to Chair Coghill, Ms. Grimes agreed that those permit holders from other states have gone through that state's requirements for a concealed-carry permit. She specified that permit holders from other states have been subject to only their state's background requirements. She related her belief that almost all of the states have some background check. CHAIR COGHILL commented, "I think we're talking about a very safe segment of society here." He further commented that he believes this refers to a small segment of society. MS. GRIMES agreed. Number 1469 PATTY OWEN, Alaska Chapter, Million Mom March, informed the committee that the Million Mom March is a grassroots organization that advocates for sensible gun laws and safe children. The Million Mom March has recently united with the National Brady Campaign, which recently released report cards for safe gun laws and assigned Alaska a "D-minus." Ms. Owen expressed her fear that HB 346 will bring Alaska's rating down to an all-time low. MS. OWENS said it appears HB 346 eliminates all the safety standards that were kept as safeguards for dealing with reciprocity of permits for concealed weapons from other states. Therefore, she expressed concern that [HB 346] would make it easier for strangers or nonresidents with unknown backgrounds to carry guns in Alaska. Although she acknowledged that negotiations are taking place regarding standardization of training and background checks, Ms. Owen said she didn't get the feeling those were in place. She concluded, "I just think the impatience here isn't worth throwing everything out the window. ... I would hope that Alaska - the Alaska legislature - would want to be in control of its own laws and not leave it up to other states to set those standards for us." REPRESENTATIVE WILSON inquired as to the rating of other states. MS. OWEN said she could provide the committee with that information, and noted that there are some states with higher ratings and others with lower ratings. She specified that this rating is not only in reference to the concealed handgun laws, but to other laws as well. Number 1648 REPRESENTATIVE FATE inquired as to the criteria the rating system uses. MS. OWEN replied that some of the [areas reviewed] are the age at which a firearm can be purchased and the age at which juveniles can be in possession of a firearm. The [rating system] places heavy emphasis on the safety of children, such as [the requirement that] guns which are sold must have safety locks. REPRESENTATIVE FATE asked if the criteria include the injuries or fatalities of youth. MS. OWEN replied no. CHAIR COGHILL surmised that part of the Million Mom March's [goal] is to promote gun control at many levels. MS. OWEN clarified that the organization [promotes] common-sense gun laws. "It's not to take away people's rights to have guns," she specified. Number 1753 REPRESENTATIVE WILSON asked if [the rating system] takes into consideration the fact that Alaskans carry guns for safety. MS. OWEN said she would have to show the committee the criteria. CHAIR COGHILL asked if Ms. Owen had a concealed-carry permit. MS. OWEN replied no. In further response to Chair Coghill, Ms. Owen said she had a basic understanding of [the requirements], although she recognized that there have been changes since the law's inception. CHAIR COGHILL remarked that by the time an individual has gone through screening, the individual is fairly well known. MS. OWEN said she understood that, which is why she would want Alaska to maintain its standard rather than allow another state to dictate those criteria. Number 1860 BRIAN JUDY, Northwestern Government Affairs Manager, National Rifle Association (NRA), began by informing the committee that in 1994 the Department of Public Safety (DPS) issued a white paper entitled "To Conceal or Not to Conceal, That is the Question," in response to the original right-to-carry legislation. That [report] was full of alarmist suggestions that there would be more guns at grocery stores and on ball fields, and that fender-benders would become shootouts. These were the same warnings heard in every other state that has passed concealed-carry legislation. MR. JUDY noted that DPS, during a recent Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, said there haven't been any problems, as has been the case in every other state, regardless of the level of qualification and training standards. The outcome is that law- abiding citizens becoming licensed by the government are exercising their constitutional right to bear arms and their natural right to defend themselves with the utmost responsibility. MR. JUDY commented that self-defense is a fundamental right that doesn't stop at state borders. Just as people have a driver's license, right-to-carry permit holders should be allowed to carry a firearm for self-defense during travel. He said studies have shown that crime rates drop when law-abiding citizens have the means to provide self-defense and are able to carry firearms. Number 2015 MR. JUDY said the newly named National Brady Campaign, formerly named Handgun Control, Inc., is attempting to ban handguns in other states. He announced that banning handguns in Alaska won't be attempted in Alaska yet. In regard to the ratings of the states, Mr. Judy said those ratings don't take into account statistics relating to death and crime, and that most states receiving "D-minus" and "F" have extraordinarily low crime rates. He surmised that those states receiving "D-minus" and "F" would receive "A-plus" when ranked according to their crime rate. Mr. Judy said the states with the most gun control laws have the highest crime rates. MR. JUDY recalled that the warnings of 1994 were heard again in 1998 in regard to SB 141. The outcome was the same when nonresidents were allowed to carry firearms in Alaska as when Alaskans were licensed, and that was, nothing happened. "Lo and behold, law-abiding citizens who go through the process in whatever state, whatever the process is, and get that permit come to Alaska, they carry, they go home, and they don't cause problems," he said. MR. JUDY suggested that legislation to clarify and broaden the number of states Alaska would recognize was passed in 2000 due to inactivity on the part of DPS to comply with the provisions of the law and provide the listing. There was very little opposition to that bill. However, DPS has been unable to provide a complete and accurate listing of all the states which Alaska recognizes. As the department stated earlier, there are two types of states that Alaska recognizes: states with similar laws, as defined in the statute, and states that recognize Alaska permits. Number 2149 MR. JUDY recalled that the department had indicated there are 25 states that Alaska recognizes, and therefore he wondered why those states are listed. He also wondered whether Alaska law enforcement has been notified which 25 states Alaska recognizes, which is critical because it's important for local law enforcement to know which permits from other states are valid. Mr. Judy guessed that there has been no notification to local law enforcement regarding those 25 states with valid permits in Alaska. MR. JUDY offered that by recognizing permits from other states, HB 346 will relieve DPS of the burden of having to evaluate all the other states' laws. Furthermore, it will place local law enforcement on notice that any law-abiding citizen with that permit from another state [has a permit that] is valid in Alaska. With regard to the concern that [HB 346] would require Alaska to recognize permits from states with lower standards, Mr. Judy highlighted that every state law is different. He said 44 states issue concealed-weapon permits, and consistent across those 44 states is that law-abiding citizens in those states are exercising their rights with the utmost responsibility. He remarked, "The State of Alaska should not have any concerns or reservations about welcoming the law-abiding citizens of other states, and honoring their permits." MR. JUDY returned attention to the 1994 DPS white paper, which pointed out that in Alaska anyone who can lawfully possess a firearm can carry openly practically anywhere in the state. This can occur now. Therefore, it makes no sense not to allow those who have gone through the process to carry concealed [firearms] if they can [already] carry openly. Mr. Judy concluded: Law-abiding citizens should be able to choose whether or not they have a need to provide for their own protection. They should be able to choose if they want to carry, and the manner in which they carry - whether it be open or concealed. So, the National Rifle Association, our 20,000 members in Alaska, urge your support for HB 346. Number 2319 CHAIR COGHILL asked if Mr. Judy has discussed with DPS the issue of getting reciprocity under the present agreement. MR. JUDY replied yes. Although the discussions with DPS have been cordial, he said, they have been totally unproductive. He pointed out that immediately after the passage of the 1998 law, DPS published a list of 17 states that would be recognized. At that time, [NRA] felt that was about right. Within the next year, however, DPS repealed that list and decided that no permits from other states would be recognized. Beginning in May 1999, Mr. Judy said he has been in contact with DPS, and the department hasn't gotten to it. However, in the last week and a half, the list has increased from 7 to 11. He surmised that the movement on the list is due to HB 346. He reiterated his preference to just recognize permits from all other states and thus he urged the committee's support for HB 346. MR. JUDY, in response to Chair Coghill, pointed out that he only knew of one other state, Utah, that provides a time limit; Utah's time limit is 60 days. He related his belief that what DPS testified to [in regard to the time limit] isn't correct. He stressed his belief that Texas would recognize Alaska if HB 346 passes because it eliminates the 120-day time limit. Texas has no time limit, as is the case in most states. Mr. Judy related his [firsthand] knowledge that Texas will not recognize permits from Utah or Alaska because of the time limits. Therefore, elimination of the time limit will increase the number of states that will recognize Alaskan permits. He also predicted that with passage of HB 346, Georgia would recognize permits from Alaska. Number 2530 CHAIR COGHILL related his understanding, then, that Alaska's permittees would benefit from the passage of HB 346 as it is. Chair Coghill asked whether the [existing] rule of requiring the permittees to announce they are [carrying a handgun] is standard practice. MR. JUDY reiterated that the existing law recognizes those states with similar laws, which is defined in Alaska code. He specified that currently permittees from other states have to be 21 years of age, go through a fingerprint-based background check, go through a course, and be eligible to possess [a firearm] under state and federal law. Those requirements would be repealed by HB 346, and therefore Alaska would recognize permits from all other states. In regard to notifying police, many states have that same requirement. Anyone carrying in Alaska with an out-of-state permit would still be required under Alaska law, and under this law, to notify law enforcement that he/she is carrying a firearm. CHAIR COGHILL again expressed his assumption that these permit holders are a very conscientious and disciplined group of people. He said he would be inquiring as to the problems that have been experienced with permitted carriers. Number 2685 JESSE VANDERZANDEN, Executive Director, Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC), testified in support of the passage of HB 346. Mr. VanderZanden informed the committee that the AOC has about 50 clubs statewide and is the state affiliate of NRA in Alaska. He pointed out that AOC's policies, bylaws, and articles of incorporation clearly state the organization's belief in the right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the constitution. The member clubs and individual memberships comprise over 12,000 in the state. Many members have encouraged AOC to assist passage of HB 346. He highlighted that many of the members are responsible, law-abiding citizens who actually teach these concealed-carry permits [classes]. Mr. VanderZanden concluded by reiterating AOC's support of HB 346. Number 2800 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS asked if Mr. VanderZanden saw any reason to be concerned with the criteria used by other states in that some states may have a less stringent concealed-carry requirement than Alaska. MR. VANDERZANDEN acknowledged that it varies, although he stressed that it doesn't vary significantly. He recognized that Alaska's requirements are very thorough and take time and money. He expressed the need for local law enforcement to [know] what states Alaska recognizes. REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS asked whether there should be concern that allowing people from other states to carry concealed weapons in Alaska lowers [Alaska's] standards. MR. VANDERZANDEN said he didn't think so. He echoed earlier testimony that those going through the concealed-carry process are upstanding citizens. The data doesn't show that these folks are the ones who might do something detrimental to society. Number 2930 EDDIE GRASSER informed the committee that he is a Native-born Alaskan who grew up in a family business involving guiding. TAPE 02-14, SIDE B Number 2961 MR. GRASSER acknowledged that there are concerns that the Second Amendment may not provide an individual right to keep and bear arms. However, he said the documents of the Founding Fathers make it clear that the Second Amendment was intended for individuals. The Alaska constitution is also quite clear that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right. Therefore, this discussion is surrounding a fundamental right, not a privilege. MR. GRASSER discussed his belief that the government's duty is to protect those fundamental rights rather than look for ways to take them away. He charged that governmental agencies and legislative bodies discuss how these rights can be eroded. Mr. Grasser stressed his belief that it isn't the government's business to tell him where and when he can carry a firearm, although he recognized the need to regulate it [to some degree]. Therefore, he related his belief that it is incumbent upon legislative bodies to act in the spirit of the Founding Fathers and ensure that those rights [relating to the right to keep and bear arms] are protected to the extent possible, which he believes HB 346 does. He urged the committee to pass HB 346. Number 2835 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS asked if Mr. Grasser has any concern with allowing people from other states to carry concealed firearms in Alaska. MR. GRASSER replied no; these are Americans, and he views the right to carry [firearms] as one that extends beyond borders. Mr. Grasser specified that he wasn't concerned with the requirements of other states because he believes the constitution provides the right [to carry firearms] to these individuals beyond the scope of the state's authority to specify the exact rules. REPRESENTATIVE WILSON informed the committee that she has a permit to carry a concealed firearm and feels that she is a much safer person [in regard to handling firearms]. CHAIR COGHILL reminded the committee that HB 346 allows for reciprocity for those who have gone through some background check. Although there are dissimilarities in laws across the nation, there is a heightened awareness of responsibility compared with Alaska's ability to carry openly without regard to responsibility. Chair Coghill acknowledged that there are constitutional issues. Number 2656 MS. GRIMES informed the committee that her research has found that five states don't require a fingerprint-based criminal history for permittees; six states don't require a handgun safety course of any kind. Ms. Grimes maintained that this research should be accurate. She highlighted that the Alaska concealed-handgun permit program is responsible for making sure that permits aren't issued to folks who are prohibited under federal firearm laws, for which the fingerprint-based criminal history is the best method to avoid issuing permits to such persons. Therefore, states not requiring that background check could issue permits to citizens who aren't eligible to own or possess firearms under federal law. MR. JUDY reiterated his position that evidence has shown that regardless of the standards, those who go through the process don't cause problems. He also reiterated that every person who can lawfully possess a firearm in the other 49 states can openly carry a firearm in Alaska. Therefore, he felt it didn't make sense to allow everyone to carry openly, while the small percentage of the population who goes through the permitting process [can't carry a concealed firearm]. Number 2520 CHAIR COGHILL pointed out that [HB 346] deletes a lot [from statute]; he requested that the rationale be explained. MR. YUHAS responded that the deleted language is language that [the sponsor] believes encumbers DPS in its process for granting reciprocity. CHAIR COGHILL noted that [HB 346] does maintain language regarding notification when stopped by a police officer. REPRESENTATIVE FATE informed the committee that in reviewing the rating of the states by [the National Brady Campaign], he found that every state with a "D" or lower - except for two states - is a hunting state. Twenty-nine of the fifty states received a "D" or less. Representative Fate commented: Something's wrong here. Basically, it looks as though the states that are hunting states have been graded the lowest, and you'd have thought that because of the amount of hunting, and the gun activity in those states, and the protection, and the knowledge of carrying weapons, that they would've been the highest states. Number 2405 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS ascertained from the [the National Brady Campaign] rating that 31 states had received a "D" [or lower] in regard to concealed-carry laws. He pointed out that those states that prohibit concealed-carry [permits] received an "A." REPRESENTATIVE WILSON pointed out that those states with low scores from [the National Brady Campaign] rating are [states with low crime rates]. MS. YUHAS addressed concerns stated in regard to permittees with unknown backgrounds. To that, she echoed earlier testimony that those [permittees from other states] have gone through a background check, although it may not be as extensive as Alaska's. MS. YUHAS offered the following statistics regarding people with concealed-carry permits: licensees are 5.7 percent less likely to be arrested for violent offenses; licensees are 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for nonviolent offenses; and the general public is 1.4 times more likely to be arrested for murder. Furthermore, states that allow people to conceal and carry firearms have an average of 24 percent lower total violent crimes, 26 percent lower homicides, 39 percent lower robberies, and 19 percent lower aggravated assaults. She also highlighted that concealed-handgun laws reduce murder by 8.5 percent, rape by 5 percent, and severe assault by 7 percent. Ms. Yuhas related that she personally took the concealed-carry class, but refused to do the paperwork because she felt the only piece of paper she needed [to carry a firearm] was the constitution. Ms. Yuhas concluded by urging the committee to pass HB 346. Number 2230 REPRESENTATIVE FATE moved to report HB 346 out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying zero fiscal note. There being no objection, HB 346 was moved out of the House State Affairs Standing Committee.
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